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Author Topic: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?  (Read 15633 times)

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Offline ppaauull0

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Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2011, 05:50:24 am »
In my opinion the fish should be catagorised into salt or fresh,for most fish its pretty clear cut were they should be, any fish that ventures into different water just to spawn should be in the catagory that they spend most of their life, Stripers salt, trout fresh etc. any fish that cannot fit into salt or fresh (very few) should be able to count in both.  I think it would be very unfair if the likes of pickerel, smallies and pumpkinseeds can be entered under salt.


Offline Transplant

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Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2011, 06:34:01 am »
I guess I started this, I should post my opinion...

Saltwater species are fish that live in salt water. If it doesn't live in salt water it's a freshwater species, regardless of whether it was caught in tidal or not. To classify what I caught as saltwater species completely defeats the purpose of having a saltwater division where the fish and techniques are completely different from what I was doing.

And think about the end of the year when the AOTY is awarded... do we really want a picture of one of us holding a pickerel as the poster boy for the Saltwater AOTY?

If it is decided that tidal water fish fall under the saltwater division, I will remove them and won't enter them as saltwater fish. If it is decided that they are freshwater, they will stay. Somone just has to let me know.
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Offline BobD

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Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2011, 08:20:43 am »
I can't speak to what tidal areas are like anywhere else, as this is all I know.  What I do know is that we have a lot of freshwater lakes and rivers here that have freshwater fish but are designated as tidal waters because the Bay of Fundy tides cause the water levels on the Saint John river and associated lakes to back up.

The freshwater fish live their entire lives in this 'tidal' area.  They are not migratory.  They are not saltwater fish.  They are not caught with saltwater tactics.

Yes, using tidal boundaries as the delineation between fresh and salt water for the AoTY is the simplest approach.  It will lead to some people scratching their head if they ever look at it and wonder why us easterners can't tell fresh from salt.

I'm good with whatever decision is made, but since the questions was brought up I figured I'd spill my 2 cents worth and make sure whoever is making the decision is as informed as possible.

Offline hoc

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Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2011, 08:21:19 am »
I think there should just be fish, not fresh or salt.  We already have to calculate the AOTY end-of-year winners with a scale due to some regions having massive variety of freshwater fish to be caught and others with very few at all.  Coincidentally the areas with very few freshwater species are the ones with access to salt. 


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Offline ppaauull0

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Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2011, 08:42:17 am »
Sorry jeremy, but I think it should be seperate, fresh water and salt water fishing are totally different, for somebody who deals with tide, swells, weather etc having to compete with the relatively easy job of fishing a lake is a bit unfair, I'm biased toward supporting saltwater fishing as I don't freshwater fish, i like the idea of having no clue as to what I may catch, fish a given lake, you already know what you can catch in it, no disrespect to lake fishing, just that I grew up next to the sea so thats my draw.

Offline stroover

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Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
« Reply #20 on: June 15, 2011, 08:56:06 am »
At least here in NB, I think there is confusion between tidal waters and salt waters. Like Bob mentionned, it's considered tidal water all the way up the Saint John River to Fredericton, but the water itself is as fresh as fresh can be up there, however one just has to go up the SJR from the Bay of Fundy about maybe 5 or 10 km (way before you get to Rothesay) and the actual salt water stops being present in the river. Meanwhile, the Richibucto River is considered tidal  a good ways up river as well, but the saltiness itself goes way up river also, which is why (I think) that we have sub-species of perch, for example, that live exclusively in the salt water of the Richibucto River, meanwhile you will not find any smallmouth bass, pickerel, etc. in that river because it's too salty for them.

Having said that, I agree that if it's caught in salty water, then label it a saltwater species, but if it's caught in fresh water (even if it's in tidal water as long at the water itself is fresh), then label it a fresh water species. 

Offline NSYakfisher

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Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
« Reply #21 on: June 15, 2011, 09:13:43 am »
Fish that are caught in fresh water vs fish caught in salt water...hell even stripers caught in the gaspereau river should be fresh while if they are caught in the basin they would be salt.  Throw out the tidal vs fresh idea and go with rivers and lakes vs salt water...simple
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Offline Wayne

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Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
« Reply #22 on: June 15, 2011, 10:18:23 am »
Throw out the tidal vs fresh idea and go with rivers and lakes vs salt water...simple

I think this is getting closer to keeping it clear and simple. Like I said before, are you in the ocean or not?

fresh water and salt water fishing are totally different, for somebody who deals with tide, swells, weather etc having to compete with the relatively easy job of fishing a lake is a bit unfair

Oh come on now, it's just a big lake with seals and crabs ha ha ha! The first time on open ocean is a humbling experience and I doubt anyone that's fished there would say the challenge is the same :o
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Offline JeffGoudreau

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Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2011, 11:18:12 am »
ha. Well. Certain tidal basins are larger than others. Most on here only know the ones they are familiar with. There are a ton of areas in Canada where the distinction between fresh and salt would be grey. We need to define boundaries as we are not going to label fish as fresh or salt. This is time consuming and none of you are biologists.

Quote
Saltwater species are fish that live in salt water. If it doesn't live in salt water it's a freshwater species, regardless of whether it was caught in tidal or not. To classify what I caught as saltwater species completely defeats the purpose of having a saltwater division where the fish and techniques are completely different from what I was doing.

Your bass Transplant are living in the salt. As were the rest of your fish. This is not abnormal but it is fact.a few times a day the area you fished in rose 1 foot or so as the basin filled with saltwater. The plants in the area survive salt content in the water. Invertebrates are present that thrive in that salt. Bass around NA live in salt. There are tournaments with BASS where the boats are fishing saltwater the entire time with high salinity.  The government has biologists that define tidal boundaries for the protection of the fish species.

Quote
And think about the end of the year when the AOTY is awarded... do we really want a picture of one of us holding a pickerel as the poster boy for the Saltwater AOTY?

There is no difference between your bass or pikeral and that gorgeous sea run cuttie that our western aoty entrant placed or a 50 lb chinook caught on a skeen sack two foot from the tidal boundry sign in the fraser river. In order for someone to win the Saltwater division they are not going to do this with just a few tidal species. But you are right. This is an area that needs more work and should be dealt with to separate the two divisions more.

Whats happening here is that people are wanting to enter fish caught in salt in the freshwater division. There needs to be definable boundaries for what is placed in the freshwater division. From the beginning I have separated the saltwater and the freshwater to avoid problems with scaling winners overall and to avoid having the participants without salt or tidal areas to play in claiming it unfair. This is going to stay the same for this year. We can revisit this in 2012 no probs. But its been written. We are still left with defining our boundaries between the two. Black = Salt, White = Fresh, Tidal = Grey
I want to maintain the integrity of the freshwater AOTY and for that I suggest eliminating the grey as this is in my experience a completely separate environment. The great lakes regions do not get afforded the position of having both to play with and thus the only fair move is to negate all 'grey' caught species and to ask for the honesty of the entrants. Will this negatively affect the saltwater division. YUP. So we should start working on that format as not much work has been done for it. We only started it up the other day to kinda get the ball rolling.

No offense to you guys that do not fish salt or have lots of experience in it but tidal waters are salt water environments. The laws dictate that tidal waters have the same laws as the saltwater marine environment and schooling teaches you why this is the way it is.

If people are going out to hunt species for the freshwater AOTY then they should be going to freshwater regulated fishing grounds. Simple as that. You should not be fishing saltwater to catch your freshwater species to enter them.

Moving towards defining the saltwater rules I think that certain species need to be defined or a new structure should be implemented to give the event more separation from the freshwater AOTY. 
« Last Edit: June 15, 2011, 11:20:51 am by JeffGoudreau »

Offline JeffGoudreau

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Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2011, 12:29:17 pm »
Quote
It will lead to some people scratching their head if they ever look at it and wonder why us easterners can't tell fresh from salt.
This is a bit ridiculous. The only question a person should be asking themselves is what type of license they are fishing under on that given day. If they are not required to have a saltwater license because your area doesnt require one then that changes nothing. You still have to have a freshwater license to fish your freshwater. Simple question, simple relation to the event.
When you are on the west coast there tidal areas are not as giant as here because of the size. But they are just as defined as here. No conservation officer will accept this plee of ignorance or personal decision of what is salt and fresh. They go by the definition written for us to follow and hand out penalties for the abuse of these definitions.
All of you that are bummed out about this tidal water crap should realize that every one of the species caught in your recent derby can be caught any given day in hundreds of lakes within 5 mins from your home. All that is happening is what had already been decided in the past and precedent was set.  Freshwater AOTY will remain 100% Freshwater - no tidal water.
Saltwater = saltwater regulations
Freshwater = Freshwater regulations

Offline stroover

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Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2011, 12:33:45 pm »
So Jeff, just to clarify in laymen's terms, the fish we caught this past weekend at the NB Paddlers Derby, do we enter them in the saltwater division, or do we not enter them at all because of grey water? (i.e.-I would have a 21 1/2" pickerel in the freshwater entries that I caught at the NSSSS, plus a 22" pickerel in the saltwater entries that I caught at the NB Paddlers Fishing Derby)

This is getting a little confusing... ???

Offline JeffGoudreau

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Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2011, 12:45:03 pm »
We should start discussing the saltwater division rules and format. I dont really like to plan these things in public as it takes forever and people tend to get offended when decisions are made after they express themselves. But seeing as this was something that came up in this fashion we need to discuss it so that all are heard. Sadly our saltwater western element is weak in numbers and Im not sure they will chime in much. I hope they do.

We are left with a problem of separating the saltwater AOTY from the fresh and creating definable rules as it pertains to tidal water entry.
I had been thinking this year was going to be a bit of a mess with this and that we could work stuff out to make next year better but if noone objects we can work through it right now.
I will speak for the westerners if they dont pipe up and I have lots of experience fishing the coast.

One thing to offer up as that we change the format to define all enter able species and point ranges based on lengths.
For example.

An atlantic cod points
1-8 inches = 1 point
8-16 inches = 2 points
16-24 inches = 3 points
24 - 32 inches = 4 points
32+ = 5 points

We then define all 'Saltwater species' and give the lengths in order to create the point base. Of course this requires length measurement. But next year we are going to adjust all of what we do a bit to force people to measure their fish accurately. This is the way all events across the World similar to ours are run.

Offline NSYakfisher

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Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
« Reply #27 on: June 15, 2011, 01:06:53 pm »
So allentires from tidal water get removed from the freshwater division and get put in the saltwater.... works for me... there are tonnes of saltwater species to be had so I see no problem with this.... salt and tidal in one freshwater in the other.... pretty sure that is what was discussed before the season anyway.

We have tonnes of tidal here in the valley as well and while I do fish some of it I haven't entered any fish... may have to get some saltwater entires in though.
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Offline JeffGoudreau

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Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
« Reply #28 on: June 15, 2011, 01:20:46 pm »
Jeremy? can you chime in with your thoughts about defining the east coasts species list? Is this something that has benefits or cons? Will defining a list separate the two events sufficiently? are there other options for formatting the event?

Offline ppaauull0

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Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2011, 01:52:28 pm »
So Jeff, just to clarify in laymen's terms, the fish we caught this past weekend at the NB Paddlers Derby, do we enter them in the saltwater division, or do we not enter them at all because of grey water? (i.e.-I would have a 21 1/2" pickerel in the freshwater entries that I caught at the NSSSS, plus a 22" pickerel in the saltwater entries that I caught at the NB Paddlers Fishing Derby)

This is getting a little confusing... ???
If this goes ahead with freshwater tidal fish being entered in the salt water catagory it means somebody could win the salt water  section without ever  actually  going out on the salt. basically we all know which fish are fresh ( pickerel, smallies etc) and salt,(stripers, cod, mackerel etc). A Pickerel is NOT a salt water fish and should not be in the salt water section period!


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