Canadian Kayak Anglers

The Past => Old Posts => 2011 AOTY POSTS => Topic started by: JeffGoudreau on June 14, 2011, 06:19:15 pm


Title: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: JeffGoudreau on June 14, 2011, 06:19:15 pm
Im going to have to look back to past talks to make sure but Im pretty sure we discussed the tidal species at somepoint during something that made me believe species caught in tidal were to be considered saltwater. I'll see if I can dig it up.
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: JeffGoudreau on June 14, 2011, 06:24:14 pm
http://canadiankayakanglers.com/index.php/topic,1945.msg13566.html#msg13566 (http://canadiankayakanglers.com/index.php/topic,1945.msg13566.html#msg13566)
Here is the precedent on the west coast. But I was pretty sure there was a discussion already about the Hammond River and the Oromocto.
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: stroover on June 14, 2011, 06:38:14 pm
Jeff, that conversation was regarding stripers. I was pretty sure they were considered a saltwater species and was asking what happens if we caught them in saltwater vs freshwater. The bottom line ended up being that any striper would be considered freshwater. I remember, because I thought that was kinda odd since DFO considers them saltwater species that go into freshwater to spawn. Just like Atlantic Salmon... (hmmm, does that mean I should move my Atlantic Salmon to the saltwater species?  ???)
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: ppaauull0 on June 14, 2011, 06:47:37 pm
If a striper is caught in tidal it should be salt, but if caught in fresh, say Grand Lake it should be in the fresh.
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: ppaauull0 on June 14, 2011, 06:48:48 pm
This discussion should be moved Jeff, we've slightly hijacked Ryans post haha.
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: JeffGoudreau on June 14, 2011, 06:55:41 pm
Quote
If a striper is caught in tidal it should be salt, but if caught in fresh, say Grand Lake it should be in the fresh.

Why is a striper any different than a Cutthroat trout? Or a steelhead? Or a White Sturgeon?
I figured that since you are fishing under a saltwater license and regulations that it would carry over to this. Part of the rules of the event say that in order for your species to be eligible it must be caught according to local regulations.
I remember the striper talk now. The only problem we face with species specific is that it becomes a nightmare to track. If someone is fishing near a tidal boundry area they are usually pretty aware of the change and the imaginary line that separates fresh and salt. Often in areas like Vancouver certain species are protected when they are in fresh water and off limits. Same goes for the great lakes.

What do others think?
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: ppaauull0 on June 14, 2011, 07:10:26 pm
I don't think its a problem as most people are honest and will tell you honestly where they caught the fish, there aren't that many fish that can tolerate both fresh and salt.
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: stroover on June 14, 2011, 08:07:36 pm
I'm fine with a fish caught in freshwater being labeled a fresh water species and the same with saltwater. Just remember, we have yellow perch that live in the saltwater of Richibucto (they just have no yellow in them).
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: JeffGoudreau on June 14, 2011, 09:16:52 pm
There are a lot of species that fall in this grey area. All kinds of trout species and many others. Whatever you guys want we will do. Does this line of tidal boundaries and fish entering make sense? If so then I can draft a new rule to be stuck in there. Please pipe up if you do not like this.
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: Wayne on June 14, 2011, 09:55:41 pm
There's no grey area when the DFO stops to talk to you. There is a definite regulation boundary between the salt and fresh on the Fraser for example and I guarantee they won't let you use your freshwater licence 1 foot downstream from it.

I personally think that it would be a big mistake to categorize spp as either fresh or salt. Too many migrate through to spawn and feed.

Catching the same species in fresh and salt can be very different challenges. A fresh freight-train chinook in the ocean out of a kayak while dealing with tides and waves is a way bigger accomplishment than catching a tired old boot way up river.

If a saltwater angler paddles the x kilometers to mooch or driftfish where the salmon are holding 70ft down, manages to hook and land, and then get himswelf safely back to shore only to have an interior boy get the same points after dragging a half dead one to shore only 30 meters away then holy crap what's the point lol!

I agree with you Jeff - my .02
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: BobD on June 14, 2011, 10:56:47 pm
Unfortunately there is grey area here in New Brunswick.  We have hundreds of miles of rivers, and thousands of acres of lakes that are in tidal water, yet they are freshwater.  Jeff, you and Paul were here last fall and you could tell how fresh the water was, yet that was tidal.  In Fredericton I am 100km upriver on the St.John and it is considered tidal water where I am.  If we declare that every fish caught in tidal water counts as a saltwater species then every fish caught at the NB Paddler's Fishing Derby will have to be considered a saltwater fish.  Yellow perch, white perch, pumpkinseed, fallfish, smallmouth bass, chain pickerel, brown bullhead, eel and shad.  I also hope that sometime this year one of us will catch a saltwater muskie.

IMO, if you catch it in fresh water (or mostly fresh water), it should be considered a freshwater fish for AOTY.  If it is caught in saltwater (or mostly saltwater) it should be considered a saltwater fish for AOTY.  In many places the tidal boundaries probably will work perfectly fine for these boundaries.  In New Brunswick, the unique situation with the Bay of Fundy tides, and the St. John river funneling through a small channel called the reversing falls, this doesn't work.  Remember we are working on a fun competition here, not trying to scientifically categorize them. 
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: JeffGoudreau on June 14, 2011, 11:48:19 pm
All of the miles of shoreline on both coasts have tidal waters Bob and they are all clearly defined in regulations. Some are more than others in that some have signs and some have km advisories. They then become one way or another under different regulatory rules. There is nothing special about the bay of fundy. Big tides or little tides the tidal boundries separate the regulations.
This helps us to define things pretty clear salt/fresh. There is no better definable solution for it. Is there?
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: JeffGoudreau on June 15, 2011, 12:12:14 am
Catching the same species in fresh and salt can be very different challenges. (http://Catching the same species in fresh and salt can be very different challenges.)
True Wayne. There is a complete difference in tactics with many species when fishing the fresh to salt. Behaviors of the fish change completely depending on the species.

And another thing to consider is that there really isnt an advantage for one coast or the other when it comes to the amount of available Marine and anadromous species. East coast doesnt have the number of trout and salmon species that run the rivers but they have these pikeral and bass and things. 
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: NSYakfisher on June 15, 2011, 12:18:21 am
I also was wondering this same thing... earlier Jeff I am pretty sure you told me that fish caught in tidal were to be considered salt... but I really dont care either way... the fish in the east region of late posted by some are indeed from tidal waters but are also generally considered freshwater fish.... need some way of seperation here thats for sure.
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: Wayne on June 15, 2011, 12:53:56 am
For sure Bob, it's important to not go overboard when there hasn't really been a problem so far.

It's pretty easy to determine most fish that are generally considered freshwater only (potamodromous).

If someone catches a pickeral in an area of a river that is considered tidal because it's influenced by the change in water level but the water is always fresh then I hope it doesn't get entered as a saltwater entry.

A coho caught in the one of the great lakes is a saltwater species but is in fresh water... it has been a freshwater point and I don't think it has raised any questions. It would seem weird if someone entered it as a saltwater entry.

Within the tidal portion of the Fraser there is going to be parts that are fresh as well so I see your point NSYak.

There is a difference between areas influenced by tides and those that are brackish and then those that are salt.

Maybe we should just ask "Hey are you in the ocean or not? Are there barnacles? What does the water taste like?" That's simple enough :D

I guess if you're going to make a saltwater entry, make sure it's obvious.
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: ppaauull0 on June 15, 2011, 05:50:24 am
In my opinion the fish should be catagorised into salt or fresh,for most fish its pretty clear cut were they should be, any fish that ventures into different water just to spawn should be in the catagory that they spend most of their life, Stripers salt, trout fresh etc. any fish that cannot fit into salt or fresh (very few) should be able to count in both.  I think it would be very unfair if the likes of pickerel, smallies and pumpkinseeds can be entered under salt.
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: Transplant on June 15, 2011, 06:34:01 am
I guess I started this, I should post my opinion...

Saltwater species are fish that live in salt water. If it doesn't live in salt water it's a freshwater species, regardless of whether it was caught in tidal or not. To classify what I caught as saltwater species completely defeats the purpose of having a saltwater division where the fish and techniques are completely different from what I was doing.

And think about the end of the year when the AOTY is awarded... do we really want a picture of one of us holding a pickerel as the poster boy for the Saltwater AOTY?

If it is decided that tidal water fish fall under the saltwater division, I will remove them and won't enter them as saltwater fish. If it is decided that they are freshwater, they will stay. Somone just has to let me know.
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: BobD on June 15, 2011, 08:20:43 am
I can't speak to what tidal areas are like anywhere else, as this is all I know.  What I do know is that we have a lot of freshwater lakes and rivers here that have freshwater fish but are designated as tidal waters because the Bay of Fundy tides cause the water levels on the Saint John river and associated lakes to back up.

The freshwater fish live their entire lives in this 'tidal' area.  They are not migratory.  They are not saltwater fish.  They are not caught with saltwater tactics.

Yes, using tidal boundaries as the delineation between fresh and salt water for the AoTY is the simplest approach.  It will lead to some people scratching their head if they ever look at it and wonder why us easterners can't tell fresh from salt.

I'm good with whatever decision is made, but since the questions was brought up I figured I'd spill my 2 cents worth and make sure whoever is making the decision is as informed as possible.
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: hoc on June 15, 2011, 08:21:19 am
I think there should just be fish, not fresh or salt.  We already have to calculate the AOTY end-of-year winners with a scale due to some regions having massive variety of freshwater fish to be caught and others with very few at all.  Coincidentally the areas with very few freshwater species are the ones with access to salt. 
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: ppaauull0 on June 15, 2011, 08:42:17 am
Sorry jeremy, but I think it should be seperate, fresh water and salt water fishing are totally different, for somebody who deals with tide, swells, weather etc having to compete with the relatively easy job of fishing a lake is a bit unfair, I'm biased toward supporting saltwater fishing as I don't freshwater fish, i like the idea of having no clue as to what I may catch, fish a given lake, you already know what you can catch in it, no disrespect to lake fishing, just that I grew up next to the sea so thats my draw.
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: stroover on June 15, 2011, 08:56:06 am
At least here in NB, I think there is confusion between tidal waters and salt waters. Like Bob mentionned, it's considered tidal water all the way up the Saint John River to Fredericton, but the water itself is as fresh as fresh can be up there, however one just has to go up the SJR from the Bay of Fundy about maybe 5 or 10 km (way before you get to Rothesay) and the actual salt water stops being present in the river. Meanwhile, the Richibucto River is considered tidal  a good ways up river as well, but the saltiness itself goes way up river also, which is why (I think) that we have sub-species of perch, for example, that live exclusively in the salt water of the Richibucto River, meanwhile you will not find any smallmouth bass, pickerel, etc. in that river because it's too salty for them.

Having said that, I agree that if it's caught in salty water, then label it a saltwater species, but if it's caught in fresh water (even if it's in tidal water as long at the water itself is fresh), then label it a fresh water species. 
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: NSYakfisher on June 15, 2011, 09:13:43 am
Fish that are caught in fresh water vs fish caught in salt water...hell even stripers caught in the gaspereau river should be fresh while if they are caught in the basin they would be salt.  Throw out the tidal vs fresh idea and go with rivers and lakes vs salt water...simple
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: Wayne on June 15, 2011, 10:18:23 am
Throw out the tidal vs fresh idea and go with rivers and lakes vs salt water...simple

I think this is getting closer to keeping it clear and simple. Like I said before, are you in the ocean or not?

fresh water and salt water fishing are totally different, for somebody who deals with tide, swells, weather etc having to compete with the relatively easy job of fishing a lake is a bit unfair

Oh come on now, it's just a big lake with seals and crabs ha ha ha! The first time on open ocean is a humbling experience and I doubt anyone that's fished there would say the challenge is the same :o
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: JeffGoudreau on June 15, 2011, 11:18:12 am
ha. Well. Certain tidal basins are larger than others. Most on here only know the ones they are familiar with. There are a ton of areas in Canada where the distinction between fresh and salt would be grey. We need to define boundaries as we are not going to label fish as fresh or salt. This is time consuming and none of you are biologists.

Quote
Saltwater species are fish that live in salt water. If it doesn't live in salt water it's a freshwater species, regardless of whether it was caught in tidal or not. To classify what I caught as saltwater species completely defeats the purpose of having a saltwater division where the fish and techniques are completely different from what I was doing.

Your bass Transplant are living in the salt. As were the rest of your fish. This is not abnormal but it is fact.a few times a day the area you fished in rose 1 foot or so as the basin filled with saltwater. The plants in the area survive salt content in the water. Invertebrates are present that thrive in that salt. Bass around NA live in salt. There are tournaments with BASS where the boats are fishing saltwater the entire time with high salinity.  The government has biologists that define tidal boundaries for the protection of the fish species.

Quote
And think about the end of the year when the AOTY is awarded... do we really want a picture of one of us holding a pickerel as the poster boy for the Saltwater AOTY?

There is no difference between your bass or pikeral and that gorgeous sea run cuttie that our western aoty entrant placed or a 50 lb chinook caught on a skeen sack two foot from the tidal boundry sign in the fraser river. In order for someone to win the Saltwater division they are not going to do this with just a few tidal species. But you are right. This is an area that needs more work and should be dealt with to separate the two divisions more.

Whats happening here is that people are wanting to enter fish caught in salt in the freshwater division. There needs to be definable boundaries for what is placed in the freshwater division. From the beginning I have separated the saltwater and the freshwater to avoid problems with scaling winners overall and to avoid having the participants without salt or tidal areas to play in claiming it unfair. This is going to stay the same for this year. We can revisit this in 2012 no probs. But its been written. We are still left with defining our boundaries between the two. Black = Salt, White = Fresh, Tidal = Grey
I want to maintain the integrity of the freshwater AOTY and for that I suggest eliminating the grey as this is in my experience a completely separate environment. The great lakes regions do not get afforded the position of having both to play with and thus the only fair move is to negate all 'grey' caught species and to ask for the honesty of the entrants. Will this negatively affect the saltwater division. YUP. So we should start working on that format as not much work has been done for it. We only started it up the other day to kinda get the ball rolling.

No offense to you guys that do not fish salt or have lots of experience in it but tidal waters are salt water environments. The laws dictate that tidal waters have the same laws as the saltwater marine environment and schooling teaches you why this is the way it is.

If people are going out to hunt species for the freshwater AOTY then they should be going to freshwater regulated fishing grounds. Simple as that. You should not be fishing saltwater to catch your freshwater species to enter them.

Moving towards defining the saltwater rules I think that certain species need to be defined or a new structure should be implemented to give the event more separation from the freshwater AOTY. 
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: JeffGoudreau on June 15, 2011, 12:29:17 pm
Quote
It will lead to some people scratching their head if they ever look at it and wonder why us easterners can't tell fresh from salt.
This is a bit ridiculous. The only question a person should be asking themselves is what type of license they are fishing under on that given day. If they are not required to have a saltwater license because your area doesnt require one then that changes nothing. You still have to have a freshwater license to fish your freshwater. Simple question, simple relation to the event.
When you are on the west coast there tidal areas are not as giant as here because of the size. But they are just as defined as here. No conservation officer will accept this plee of ignorance or personal decision of what is salt and fresh. They go by the definition written for us to follow and hand out penalties for the abuse of these definitions.
All of you that are bummed out about this tidal water crap should realize that every one of the species caught in your recent derby can be caught any given day in hundreds of lakes within 5 mins from your home. All that is happening is what had already been decided in the past and precedent was set.  Freshwater AOTY will remain 100% Freshwater - no tidal water.
Saltwater = saltwater regulations
Freshwater = Freshwater regulations
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: stroover on June 15, 2011, 12:33:45 pm
So Jeff, just to clarify in laymen's terms, the fish we caught this past weekend at the NB Paddlers Derby, do we enter them in the saltwater division, or do we not enter them at all because of grey water? (i.e.-I would have a 21 1/2" pickerel in the freshwater entries that I caught at the NSSSS, plus a 22" pickerel in the saltwater entries that I caught at the NB Paddlers Fishing Derby)

This is getting a little confusing... ???
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: JeffGoudreau on June 15, 2011, 12:45:03 pm
We should start discussing the saltwater division rules and format. I dont really like to plan these things in public as it takes forever and people tend to get offended when decisions are made after they express themselves. But seeing as this was something that came up in this fashion we need to discuss it so that all are heard. Sadly our saltwater western element is weak in numbers and Im not sure they will chime in much. I hope they do.

We are left with a problem of separating the saltwater AOTY from the fresh and creating definable rules as it pertains to tidal water entry.
I had been thinking this year was going to be a bit of a mess with this and that we could work stuff out to make next year better but if noone objects we can work through it right now.
I will speak for the westerners if they dont pipe up and I have lots of experience fishing the coast.

One thing to offer up as that we change the format to define all enter able species and point ranges based on lengths.
For example.

An atlantic cod points
1-8 inches = 1 point
8-16 inches = 2 points
16-24 inches = 3 points
24 - 32 inches = 4 points
32+ = 5 points

We then define all 'Saltwater species' and give the lengths in order to create the point base. Of course this requires length measurement. But next year we are going to adjust all of what we do a bit to force people to measure their fish accurately. This is the way all events across the World similar to ours are run.
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: NSYakfisher on June 15, 2011, 01:06:53 pm
So allentires from tidal water get removed from the freshwater division and get put in the saltwater.... works for me... there are tonnes of saltwater species to be had so I see no problem with this.... salt and tidal in one freshwater in the other.... pretty sure that is what was discussed before the season anyway.

We have tonnes of tidal here in the valley as well and while I do fish some of it I haven't entered any fish... may have to get some saltwater entires in though.
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: JeffGoudreau on June 15, 2011, 01:20:46 pm
Jeremy? can you chime in with your thoughts about defining the east coasts species list? Is this something that has benefits or cons? Will defining a list separate the two events sufficiently? are there other options for formatting the event?
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: ppaauull0 on June 15, 2011, 01:52:28 pm
So Jeff, just to clarify in laymen's terms, the fish we caught this past weekend at the NB Paddlers Derby, do we enter them in the saltwater division, or do we not enter them at all because of grey water? (i.e.-I would have a 21 1/2" pickerel in the freshwater entries that I caught at the NSSSS, plus a 22" pickerel in the saltwater entries that I caught at the NB Paddlers Fishing Derby)

This is getting a little confusing... ???
If this goes ahead with freshwater tidal fish being entered in the salt water catagory it means somebody could win the salt water  section without ever  actually  going out on the salt. basically we all know which fish are fresh ( pickerel, smallies etc) and salt,(stripers, cod, mackerel etc). A Pickerel is NOT a salt water fish and should not be in the salt water section period!
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: Transplant on June 15, 2011, 02:01:39 pm
I'm with Paul on this one. I think the rules are putting the freshwater division on a pedestel at the expense of the saltwater division. I will abide by the rules as they stand, but I'm personally not going to enter what I consider to be freshwater fish into the saltwater division.
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: JeffGoudreau on June 15, 2011, 02:12:48 pm
The freshwater AOTY is on a pedestal. Last year there was a single participant in the saltwater division and Paul only entered fish because I bugged him to :) Instead of complaining about it transplant why not offer some input into the structure of the saltwater event? The saltwater event is a separate event that has nothing to do with AOTY and hasn't had anything to do with it to date.
Decisions get made to create sound structure in these events. There are elements that seem to be forgotten when you guys think about stuff like this. Judging and tracking take time and people volunteer a lot of time in the rule creation and things. This defining of salt and fresh is the best option and makes more sense than anything offered up so far. It addresses easily seen boundaries, fish species available across Canada and administrative ease. Sadly I get to make the call and get the evil eyes.
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: ppaauull0 on June 15, 2011, 02:19:03 pm
I am going to completely change my mind and agree with Jeremy, it may be easier and better for the green region to do away with fresh and salt and have it combined. I am the first to say I am a salt water fisherman only but this decision would force me to fish fresh to have any chance of winning, which can only be a good thing, and visa versa with a fresh water expert, it can only make us better fisherman and will quash the great salt- fresh divide. We all class ourselves as good fisherman but this will force us to fish out of our comfort zones, get us all fishing new places with new techniques. What do you guys think?
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: JeffGoudreau on June 15, 2011, 02:25:23 pm
Quote
I am going to completely change my mind and agree with Jeremy, it may be easier and better for the green region to do away with fresh and salt and have it combined. I am the first to say I am a salt water fisherman only but this decision would force me to fish fresh to have any chance of winning,

Can you guys please not get mislead here? The AOTY Freshwater event is freshwater only.
You that want to see the saltwater event grow can start by making a list of species which are allowed to be in the competition. You can take the tidal species off the list if you see fit. This option can help define the rules and create a true saltwater species list for your event.

Please do not think of the saltwater competition as something to do with the freshwater AOTY as it has nothing to do with it.
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: JeffGoudreau on June 15, 2011, 02:35:19 pm
ok. I adjusted the forum to have a new section for the Saltwater competition. Please go into the general commenting area and we can figure out the formatting to do with the event.
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: stroover on June 15, 2011, 02:58:03 pm
Jeff, you still didn't answer my question as to what do we do with fish caught so far and in the future from tidal water. Do I have to delete them from the freshwater entries? Do I move them to saltwater entries? Do I leave them where they are?

The way I'm understanding it, any fish caught in tidal waters don't count. Is that correct, or did I misread it?
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: JeffGoudreau on June 15, 2011, 03:03:51 pm
sadly that is correct. fish caught under saltwater regulations are considered ineligible for the AOTY freshwater competition. We are talking about reformatting the saltwater event in the other section so you will have to follow that thread to see if they are eligible. http://canadiankayakanglers.com/index.php/topic,2197.msg15524/topicseen.html#new (http://canadiankayakanglers.com/index.php/topic,2197.msg15524/topicseen.html#new)
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: stroover on June 15, 2011, 03:07:47 pm
sadly that is correct. fish caught under saltwater regulations are considered ineligible for the AOTY freshwater competition. We are talking about reformatting the saltwater event in the other section so you will have to follow that thread to see if they are eligible. http://canadiankayakanglers.com/index.php/topic,2197.msg15524/topicseen.html#new (http://canadiankayakanglers.com/index.php/topic,2197.msg15524/topicseen.html#new)

Be aware, however, that the same DFO regulations state that though a fishing license is not required to fish in tidal waters, any freshwater sport fish caught in tideal waters cannot be retained unless the angler posesses a valid freshwater sportfishing license. In other words, though they are caught in tidal water, these fish are still considered freshwater species.  (Sorry, but I had to throw-in that curve-ball at ya!)

So based on the above, I move that any fish considered to be freshwater species may be entered into the AOTY Freshwater Entries, whether they are caught in freshwater or tidal waters.

If not, that'll leave several people in a bind here, as I for example, will have to drive over an hour every time I want to target freshwater species (past Fredericton), or settle for a few saltwater species in the Bay of Fundy. Either way, I don't have a snowball's hope in Hawaii to win this, unless I want to invest a LOT of gas money and a lot of butt-kissing my wife to let me go. Lol!
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: JeffGoudreau on June 15, 2011, 03:21:17 pm
haha. You easterners are so backwards. This is not the case on the west coast.
But either way. You are beyond the boundary set out by the DFO defining salt and fresh. You are not in freshwater boundaries at that point.
The rules are written as this
Quote
In order for a fish to be considered legally caught for our competition the angler must have used only human or green powered watercraft. Motorized kayaks are eligible for entry so long as the individual is deemed Handicapped from our federal government. Sails and other methods of green power are eligible and endorsed by CKA. You cannot be towed to a spot or receive any assistance from powerboat. If the fish is to large to land on your own then special circumstances will be invoked and a vote of participants may be required to allow or disallow the fish. All fish must be caught according to the Freshwater regulations your province has set out for you to follow. If you are under saltwater regulations then you are not allowed to enter your fish in the Freshwater AOTY.

This is not to say that the saltwater rules will read the same. But does that sound ok?
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: stroover on June 15, 2011, 03:27:27 pm

[/quote]This is not to say that the saltwater rules will read the same. But does that sound ok?
[/quote]

Nope. If that's the case, then I guess I'm out of the AOTY, as I can't afford to be driving past Fredericton to go fishing. I'll try for a few saltwater species for the saltwater entries when I'm at the cottage, however, unless they get messed up for us easterners as well.   :(  I'll still have fun fishing in my waters, though. I just won't be competing against you guys. Tight lines, guys!
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: NSYakfisher on June 15, 2011, 03:36:46 pm
Sounds ok but I see Stoovers point.... perhaps next year we can factor this in somehow..... a list of elligible species for the division that count reguardless of where they are caught based on the region.

Sunfish
Chainpickeral
Smallie
Chub
etc
etc
etc...

If it aint on the list then they don't count for AOY entries... like IMO Atlantics are in such trouble then perhaps they should be left of the list... it would take the voices of anglers for each region to come up with a Species list for the Freshwater Division or whatever it would be called.
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: stroover on June 15, 2011, 03:46:15 pm
Sounds ok but I see Stoovers point.... perhaps next year we can factor this in somehow..... a list of elligible species for the division that count reguardless of where they are caught based on the region.

Sunfish
Chainpickeral
Smallie
Chub
etc
etc
etc...

If it aint on the list then they don't count for AOY entries... like IMO Atlantics are in such trouble then perhaps they should be left of the list... it would take the voices of anglers for each region to come up with a Species list for the Freshwater Division or whatever it would be called.

x 2
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: JeffGoudreau on June 15, 2011, 04:14:28 pm
We will bring up rule changes at the end of the season. This will allow for all kinks to be discussed for 2012. There are lots of species on the other coast that are the same as here regarding their movement. more even. This is a whole big ball of wax.
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: JeffGoudreau on June 15, 2011, 04:25:33 pm
Are you new brunswickers saying that you only have a chance to catch these species in tidal waters? Cause I see on google earth a million places to catch stuff. I have yet to see anyone fish the saltwater outside of Paul, John or Jeremy out here. So the saltwater competition is still super low priority really. Noone really fishes salt yet out here. But Jeremy is working on creating a separate rules and list of points to help set this up. So please participate in it so it can fly.
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: BKiley on June 15, 2011, 04:46:16 pm
Why not just create a third (Tidal) division.  Any species of fish, fresh or salt, caught in tidal waters would be eligible.  Although IMHO, it seems reasonable that if you need a "freshwater" license to retain "freshwater" fish caught in tidal waters, then those particular species are freshwater fish.  If this is going to become an issue it could take forever to sort it out. 
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: stroover on June 15, 2011, 04:48:02 pm
Are you new brunswickers saying that you only have a chance to catch these species in tidal waters? Cause I see on google earth a million places to catch stuff. I have yet to see anyone fish the saltwater outside of Paul, John or Jeremy out here. So the saltwater competition is still super low priority really. Noone really fishes salt yet out here. But Jeremy is working on creating a separate rules and list of points to help set this up. So please participate in it so it can fly.

What you're seeing in google earth are lakes not much bigger then swimming pools which are too small for kayaks, lakes that are actually tidal waters, or lakes with nothing but yellow perch and minnows. You basically have to drive a hundred and some kilometers in order to be in actual non-tidal waters to be still navigable. Take the Hammond River, for example: It's tidal up to the train bridge in Nauwigewauk, but a couple of hundred yards up-river and you're ankle deep in water. Can't kayak in that.
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: JeffGoudreau on June 15, 2011, 04:52:34 pm
So you are saying that essentially you are in tidal waters all the time while you are fishing because of the way your local boundries are set up from the government? And that you must travel a couple hours to get to official freshwater?
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: stroover on June 15, 2011, 05:24:54 pm
Yes.
Go to page two of this thread and look at BobD's map. See that red line? That's all tidal water.
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: JeffGoudreau on June 15, 2011, 05:28:10 pm
It looks as though north of Prince of Wales there are a ton of lakes and rivers. These are like 40 kms from you. Are these lakes tidal? I cant tell.
We are all traveling to get species within our given regions. Im going down to weymouth next weekend and will be traveling around looking for trophy rainbows before then. Its part of the game we are playing to get species and trophy points.

 
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: JeffGoudreau on June 15, 2011, 05:34:55 pm
If it is not possible to resolve this issue with boundaries and it will force you to pull out of the running then we will have to discuss alternatives. But if this is because you just dont want to drive a little distance then thats different. Let me know. We can figure it out.
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: stroover on June 15, 2011, 05:43:26 pm
All that area is touchy (Prince of Whales, like you mentioned): It's either all private water per se with no public access, closed to fishing because it belongs to the city of Saint John's drinking water supply, or is simply unaccessable. There's actually a lot of discussion on the matter in the NewBrunswickFishing.com forums, and anglers are not happy. The lakes that you can fish in there are either too small for kayaks, or you have to bushwack a few km's in the woods with little or no paths to get to them, and once you get there there are only yellow perch and or sunfish. The waters that have bass, pickerel, etc. are all rivers (yep, tidal). They got there via the Saint John River, all the way north, as a result of flooding causing the connection of more northern rivers via Quebec, and therefore have not been able to get into the lakes per se.
You will no doubt also notice other rivers about 50 km's or so (i.e.- Lepreau), but those rivers are rivers that whitewater kayakers use for their sport and are not fit for kayak fishing. I sure as heck ain't gonna try it!
As for the travelling in search of trophy points, I'm gonna do that as well. I just cannot afford (gas-wise) to do it every weekend. I might get to go out a couple of times this summer (i.e.-Miramichi, Kouchibouguac, Mactaquac), but as for my daily fishing, hardly anything will be able to qualify for AOTY. If the saltwater entries will remain, however, I should be able to do ok once I'm at the cottage, as I will be doing some fishing in the Northumberland Strait quite often.

Bottom line: this area is complicated when it comes to the rules you are suggesting. Maybe I'm over-reacting, but at the moment my initial feeling is that it's not good. However, I'm one but a few anglers in this region that will be affected, so it's our loss. The collective shouldn't have to suffer just to alter it for the few of us.
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: JeffGoudreau on June 15, 2011, 05:54:40 pm
comon. all of these lakes are lacking in species and are deemed tidal? There are lots of areas in Canada that are in much worse shape competing for the AOTY due to water proximity than yourself. Noone from Kitchener or guelph has complained yet about lake access and they are way further from stuff than you. We arent going to get into breaking things down per little region to make everyone happy and to solve peoples problem of driving a little distance to lakes. Thats crazy.
The only thing we can try and figure out is this issue of species specific BS with making certain saltwater exceptions. If we have to do this then we have to do this. 
Have a look at the difference between you and Kitchener. You have way more area to fish.
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: stroover on June 15, 2011, 06:03:26 pm
As long as you don't pull the saltwater division out, I'm good to go. If you consider "a little distance" 100 + kms, then ya, I'm not into driving a little distance regularly for AOTY, as my truck is a gasoholic. What looks good on Google Earth is a different story when you show up there in real life. Don't get me wrong, I'm still gonna fish pretty much every day this summer, though, but it's gonna be in tidal water or on the ocean. No hard feelings, man.

So, is this effective IMMEDIATLEY, or does it start next year? (I need to know if I need to remove some fish from my entries or not)
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: JeffGoudreau on June 15, 2011, 06:12:36 pm
If it is just a matter of this one area above the St. Johns river reversing falls and all of the tribs then we should just make an exception for the area to solve all problems. I can see that this might make for a future issue with other areas including QC and Ontario as well as areas on the coast but we can deal with that when it comes down to it I guess.
We will have to amend rules and create an exception #1 dedicated to the waterways north of reversing falls.
This area above the falls will be deemed freshwater for the AOTY. After a day of battling it out you all get your way :)
The rules pertaining to freshwater entries will remain the same across the country with exception of this area. and in future we will have to jump into the StLawrence area and others Im sure to create boundry lines for exception #s.
 
Are any of you objecting?
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: JeffGoudreau on June 15, 2011, 06:26:17 pm
for the 2012 AOTY we will create maps that very accurately show the boundries for tidal water and freshwater. We will make these for the major areas affected by this and then the rest of Canada is shit out of luck and have to have the basic ruling.
I plan on fishing the arctic north next summer up near Inuvik. What then?
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: stroover on June 15, 2011, 06:44:35 pm
The Saint John River and its tribs are unique in the sense that the Bay of Fundy tides push 130 + kms up river, however the salt water doesn't make it up more then maybe ten to fifteen kilometres (not far above the Reversing Falls). How is this possible? I don't really know, but I'm sure it has something to do with the tide preventing the flow of the river to make it out to sea, thus backing up the river all the way beyond Fredericton.

So, do we delete some of our "freshwater" entries, or are they good to go?
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: JeffGoudreau on June 15, 2011, 06:52:51 pm
jesus JC. lol
Yah man. We will create an exception for that area considering the argument given. So your fish from the event stay in the AOTY as eligible entries. I will have to get back to the rules and adjust them for the exceptions.
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: stroover on June 15, 2011, 06:58:48 pm
jesus JC. lol
Yah man. We will create an exception for that area considering the argument given. So your fish from the event stay in the AOTY as eligible entries. I will have to get back to the rules and adjust them for the exceptions.

Thanks man! That's all I needed to know. (Geez! trying to get a simple answer out of you is like talking to a politician!)  :P
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: Transplant on June 15, 2011, 08:49:43 pm
How did I get pegged as a complainer? I was only trying to stand up for the saltwater guys... they are 10 times as nuts as anyone on freshwater. They deserve to have their style of fishing kept seperate from those of us that head out on little lakes and rivers and toss little baits at little fish. I realize that there was only 1 entry last year, and I know the numbers are limited this year, but I have no doubt that everyone is going to stand up and notice the first time someone on this site posts a pic of a big saltwater fish.

Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: ppaauull0 on June 15, 2011, 09:21:42 pm
When are you going to join us on the salt then Ryan. My goal this year is to catch a shark, hopefully a Blue, but who can tell, when youv'e got a whole mackerel dangling under a balloon, oozing blood and guts, who's going to tell Mr Mako the baits not intended for him? :o
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: Transplant on June 15, 2011, 09:36:42 pm
I am definitely game for some salt this year, the 26th looks to be my next day free for fishing if anyone else is game. But when the mako shows up I'm sort of hoping I can outpaddle at least one person out on the water with us. Either that or I'm hoping crap is a mako deterrent, because I'll be leaving a trail of it behind me.
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: JeffGoudreau on June 15, 2011, 11:30:40 pm
Quote
How did I get pegged as a complainer?
Ryan I complain all the time dude. you can complain. haha. This experience weirdly reminded me of a recent shopping spree justification conversation I had with my spouse lately. haha She was telling me why she had to have it and how it was on sale and I just complained and gave in.  :P
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: John Gibson on June 16, 2011, 05:20:31 am
Quote
How did I get pegged as a complainer?
Ryan I complain all the time dude. you can complain. haha. This experience weirdly reminded me of a recent shopping spree justification conversation I had with my spouse lately. haha She was telling me why she had to have it and how it was on sale and I just complained and gave in.  :P

didnt we have a convo similar to this when we went out fishing? something about a $200 purse vs justifying a $500 rod.....
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: John Gibson on June 16, 2011, 06:26:39 am
wow what a heavy thread, but i think were making headway...  I think??

I like the tiered measurement rules for saltwater to base points that was previously discussed.
As for the rules on Saltwater vs fresh.. how messy would it get to make regional amendments to the rules to determine what would be allowable in that area?
It prolly cant happen this year, but over the winter what else do we have to do lol. (well for those fools that dont icefish :D).


Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: Transplant on June 16, 2011, 09:28:15 am
It's going to look like I'm complaining again but what the hell :)

Isn't the whole point of this thing to give us all a forum for looking awesome? Really, why else does anyone post fish pictures online? Why is Jeff always having fits about hero shots?

Let's just stick to being awesome, and make sure the rules are set up so everyone has some incentive to put the effort into taking those pics and posting them.
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: hoc on June 16, 2011, 09:39:18 am
Ryan has a good point about the hero shots, I find that getting a measurement on the fish pretty much removes your chance for a hero shot unless you are keeping it, which in my case is pretty much never.  That being said, the competition does do a good job of getting people to go to new places and try for new species they may never bother with.  This gets them on new water, trying new techniques and maybe fishing with new people they otherwise wouldn't have, and in the end providing for more great pictures and fish stories.  My take on it is, if I get a fish of a lifetime, I don't give a shit if I miss the measurement and lose some points, that hero shot is all that matters :)  The other option is, fish with friends so they can take a shot of you from their boat while you worry about getting the measurements in your boat, best of both worlds.
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: John Gibson on June 16, 2011, 09:43:39 am
yeah, and that way IF you lose your camera you have back-ups lol.
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: JeffGoudreau on June 17, 2011, 09:38:59 am
ha. With the events I am trying to build media for a website. The ruler shots dont do the events justice for potential onlookers. Some people are more catch and release minded than others. If its bleeding let it go :)

This competition was started by Russ(12footer). His main focus was to get people to fish and post trips and participate. I do not want to distort the competition much from his original plan. He was against having a saltwater component. I fought for it because I knew how it felt to live far from land on an island in the north pacific with no way to compete in the AOTY at NWKA. So I wanted to at least have something for folks without a choice. and that is another reason we are not amalgamating the salt and fresh as there are lots of people without freshwater access and that would stop them from competing in the overall event. Salt is separate.

I think this years rules are pretty good and fair and outside of changing the ones that conflict and adjusting measurement points after we witness what is caught in certain regions this year it wont be a whole revamp next year. Just participate and have fun :)
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: ipop on July 04, 2011, 02:23:41 pm
wow what a long lead. and after reading it all i find myself completely disagreeing with my fellow new brunswickers!!!

salt is salt, fresh is fresh. i`m sorry you can`t taste it, but in actuality, that`s just what a judge did to set those salt water limits.  take a good taste! but take it from the bottom. the fresh water lies on top of the salt water, often hardly mixing.
if you want to set up a brachis division, fine, that should settle the question. saying the 37" striper i landed above the falls with a bunch of sea lice still on it was caught in fresh water isn`t what the government says, so why on earth would we????? dfo says that's the Atlantic ocean. oh, and  needing a provincial license for keeping sport fish doesn`t just apply to brachis waters but also to all of our ocean coast to, and that's because of the feds letting the Atlantic provinces charge us just one license to keep sport fish. please don`t encourage then to go like they do on the west coast with a different license for each area.
these salt/fresh water limits are clearly listed in the ice fishing regs and can be found with more difficulty in the regular rules.

as for not being able to get to fresh water...lol, come on!!! nb is full of lakes, almost all streams and brooks are fresh, and if you have to travel a bit, that's part of what it would take to win. oh, and that crap about no kayaking above the train bridge, seems to me i remember the half mile paddle down from the salmon lodge to tidal as a paddle, not a walk. how much you can kayak the Hammond has much more to do with it`s water level rather than how much of it is tidal. i often kayak up to the dark hole and have yaked miles of it further up stream.
i don`t know if i`m to late to effect the rules for this year, and if so, that`s my problem not people running the contest. i should have been on the site sooner.
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: stroover on July 05, 2011, 06:34:25 pm
wow what a long lead. and after reading it all i find myself completely disagreeing with my fellow new brunswickers!!!

salt is salt, fresh is fresh. i`m sorry you can`t taste it, but in actuality, that`s just what a judge did to set those salt water limits.  take a good taste! but take it from the bottom. the fresh water lies on top of the salt water, often hardly mixing.
if you want to set up a brachis division, fine, that should settle the question. saying the 37" striper i landed above the falls with a bunch of sea lice still on it was caught in fresh water isn`t what the government says, so why on earth would we????? dfo says that's the Atlantic ocean. oh, and  needing a provincial license for keeping sport fish doesn`t just apply to brachis waters but also to all of our ocean coast to, and that's because of the feds letting the Atlantic provinces charge us just one license to keep sport fish. please don`t encourage then to go like they do on the west coast with a different license for each area.
these salt/fresh water limits are clearly listed in the ice fishing regs and can be found with more difficulty in the regular rules.

as for not being able to get to fresh water...lol, come on!!! nb is full of lakes, almost all streams and brooks are fresh, and if you have to travel a bit, that's part of what it would take to win. oh, and that crap about no kayaking above the train bridge, seems to me i remember the half mile paddle down from the salmon lodge to tidal as a paddle, not a walk. how much you can kayak the Hammond has much more to do with it`s water level rather than how much of it is tidal. i often kayak up to the dark hole and have yaked miles of it further up stream.
i don`t know if i`m to late to effect the rules for this year, and if so, that`s my problem not people running the contest. i should have been on the site sooner.
;D Lol! Hey ipop, I'd like to see you try to paddle up the Hammond to the deep hole this time of year, buddy! I hope you like portageing! Lol!
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: ipop on July 06, 2011, 12:08:11 am
stroover - no problem. the lower Hammond is very high right now. have you been on it lately? i doubt i could make the french village bridge right now but there is only one skinny bit of water between the mouth and the dark hole, and that`s at the bottom of the dark hole. i did it last year with less water competing with my nephew to see who could make it up without walking, him in an inflatable and me in the yak. we both made it, not easy but it can be done. the water is so high there is no beach by the covered bridge to darlings island.
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: stroover on July 06, 2011, 07:09:18 am
I've been away the last couple of weeks so I don't know what the water level is there at the moment, but normally you don't do any paddling above Steel's Pool this time of year unless your boat has wheels on the bottom. Lol! If you're familiar with Fundy Paddlers, you'll notice they stop all paddling in the Hammond as of a month ago and concentrate on other rivers this time of year.

By the way, what lakes do you bushwhack into with your yak that doesn't require you to portage a kilometre or more and has something other then perch or panfish? I'd like to know, as they are unbeknownst to me. I'm still looking with no luck.
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: BobD on July 06, 2011, 08:57:53 am
wow what a long lead. and after reading it all i find myself completely disagreeing with my fellow new brunswickers!!!

salt is salt, fresh is fresh. i`m sorry you can`t taste it, but in actuality, that`s just what a judge did to set those salt water limits.  take a good taste! but take it from the bottom. the fresh water lies on top of the salt water, often hardly mixing.
if you want to set up a brachis division, fine, that should settle the question. saying the 37" striper i landed above the falls with a bunch of sea lice still on it was caught in fresh water isn`t what the government says, so why on earth would we????? dfo says that's the Atlantic ocean.

Hey ipop... I'm certainly not arguing the tidal boundaries, and agreed it was the easiest delineation for the AOTY competition.  I raised the point that it would mean we listed some supposedly freshwater fish into a saltwater division.  Of course the saltwater folks didn't want that (for obvious reasons).    My concern has been that this created a huge amount of water that was ineligible for entry. 

Under intense browbeat... ahem... campaigning from stroover, Jeff agreed to make an exception for the freshwater rules to include the Saint John River watershed in the freshwater division.  I'm sure everyone knows this is not a perfect solution and we'll have further discussions on it.  I can see the possibility of creating a list of fish in this region and listing the fish as freshwater or saltwater, though I am sure there are other possible solutions as well. 
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: ipop on July 06, 2011, 02:15:11 pm
i understand it`s a little tricky, and as i said, i`ll work with the rules as they were when i joined the board, but this solution causes at least as many problems as it solved. that`s the ocean coming up through the falls, and the st. john is a fjord actualy at least to gagetown. first the french and then the english and then finaly Canada argued this question for fishing rights and regs over a century ago. it`s it not bad reading and was a part of the hundred years war. there is a journal writen by priest/minister from kingston that tells all about it, and thats from the 1800`s.

all that said, i think the idea is what type of fish is being caught, not if it was open ocean, inshore, bracish, river , lake or pond (and saying" pond" would cause problems in nfld)

heres my problem. i actualy fish at, in and around the reversing falls, and some times, like on the striper i have in the salt water section, they actualy drag me from one to the other, or try to. should my striper be a fresh water striper - i think that creates a major problem. a fresh water striper has different rules than salt. in this case i would have still been legal, but if i had posted the 22" schoolie striper i caught at midnight i would be saying i had broken the law (which is not the case - salt is 24/7 fresh is is 2hrs on either side of light) see my problem. almost 99% of stripers here are going to be listed as fresh water fish - i`m the only one i know that fishs the reversing falls area by kayak. i think a striper should actualy be caught in fresh water to be listed that way. saying this is definately to my disadvantage as it is a fair drive to any fresh water stripers for me. and what about jc. there are easy stripers on the east coast...and they are protected and against the law to target them, so we shouldn`t have any pictures of them. i would lose out on this too, as i vacation on that coast and have landed a number of stripers mackeral fishing. by catch is by catch but do we really want pictures here of illegal fish?! this also eliminates salmon from the bay of fundy systems, including the saint john, but there are land lochs legal here. that means about a 3 hour drive minumum for me for leagal salmon, but that`s life.
so what`s the decision on my striper. i`m calling it salt because by the rules, it was actualy in the falls area and below the next identifiable /named spot, rohans island and the power boat club. so if i catch one a hundred yrds up stream it`s frsh water? i have to know because i have a 27" with no measurement from there, just an attempt at some hero shots - it was my first striper this year, and is on my rack fliers (that shot wouldn`t work here -you can`t tell what type of fish it is, but i have many other shots) and that fish was caught legal by fresh water rules, since it was caught at dusk. maybe thats one thing we should at least say - you should have a fresh water license to show a fresh  water fish and it should be by fresh water rules.
sorry for causing head aches jeff. i can feel that thumper from here.
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: ipop on July 06, 2011, 02:38:24 pm
as for what lakes do i bushwack in to...stroover, are you kidding me? it`s a long list. i almost always just drive up to the lakes. try the irving book of roads and trails, it lists a ton of them. you will get a partial list when i post some land loch and browns, some bigger smallies etc. but drive along loch lomond road just to start, then golden grove rd, then black river rd. that should give you dozens of lakes either with road access or less than 100 feet to water and a dozen rivers and yakable streams. almost al of then have trophy fish by the contest rules.  rockwood park has nine lakes with smallies and trout and a million perch and redear sunnies (i never saw a native nb pumpkin seed sunny until just a few years ago, all the saint john area lakes were stocked with readears and shellcrackers when they were stocked with smallies i believe) half of those lakes have road access. and thats all in or around saint john.

maybe you should hire a kayak guide...lol ;D
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: stroover on July 06, 2011, 05:13:55 pm
as for what lakes do i bushwack in to...stroover, are you kidding me? it`s a long list. i almost always just drive up to the lakes. try the irving book of roads and trails, it lists a ton of them. you will get a partial list when i post some land loch and browns, some bigger smallies etc. but drive along loch lomond road just to start, then golden grove rd, then black river rd. that should give you dozens of lakes either with road access or less than 100 feet to water and a dozen rivers and yakable streams. almost al of then have trophy fish by the contest rules.  rockwood park has nine lakes with smallies and trout and a million perch and redear sunnies (i never saw a native nb pumpkin seed sunny until just a few years ago, all the saint john area lakes were stocked with readears and shellcrackers when they were stocked with smallies i believe) half of those lakes have road access. and thats all in or around saint john.

maybe you should hire a kayak guide...lol ;D
See? That's the whole point. The lakes you're talking about only hold panfish, perch and bass. For point numbers, you need the Kennebecasis and the Saint John. Once you've caught panfish, bass, and perch,  you're done if all you have to work with are the lakes. The "GOOD" ones are virtually inaccessable. You can catch everything you listed, ipop, on the Hammond or the Kennebecasis alone, and you know it.
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: NSYakfisher on July 06, 2011, 05:56:03 pm
I don't really care for tidal being included myself.... I have to travel for my fish but the greenregion can be won fishing only tidal water in one place where it wasn't gonna be included... I will go with the decision but something needs to be hammered out next year.  Start with a set of rules stick to it...if their are problems makes changes for the next season.
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: ipop on July 06, 2011, 07:29:55 pm
stroover...what the ..... what species is it that you consider good enough to fish for? what country do you find them in? tarpon? roster fish? mako shark? - ohps we get the mako's here but they rarely if ever go above the reversing falls. did you some how miss the bit about trophy fish? one reason i can even try to be a kayak fishing guide here is there is such a variety and quality of fishing. do your home work!!!! i thought you wanted to be a kayak fishing guide? i listed just 3 roads and a park. i would have no problem taking a client for great quality fishing here and i wouldn't even have to hit the park. how long have you been here?  as i understand it, your complaint is that some of the lakes are isolated?? no boat launch?? i thought that was one of the good things about kayak fishing. and news flash! there is only one species that's different in those lakes, and that's lake trout, and i know a spot to drive up for them too.  i hate to say it, but it sounds like you are just trying to get me to hand feed you some winning fish and your only info in exchange is not correct - when you catch a land loch on the Hammond, tell me about it. the wardens will be surprised! browns there are a once in a blue moon, same for rainbows and they never stocked the hybreds there. all these are available in the lakes along those roads i mentioned, and that's besides brookies, pickerel and more. what if you were just north of moncton area? almost all species closed, and what fish are there are smaller, so you would have to travel for trophy fish. as nsyaker said, he has to travel for all his fish. trophy's are supposed to be the exception, not common, available to all at the drop of a line. the guys in NS must wonder what fish you are looking for too, since you just crapped all over their selection of fresh water fish except trout.

maybe this list will inspire you, i have caught all these fish here:

28" sea run speckled trout - you can launch in SJ to get where i caught it
34" brown - down town SJ
30+" pickerel - on one of those roads in SJ
6# and more smallies - 2 lake in SJ and many more withen a 45 minute drive
2# smelts - end of millidge ave...in SJ
trophy White suckers - lakes on those roads again
record book yellow perch - on a feeder road to one of those 3 roads
4' american eels - a fresh water pond just off the kennibicasis...in SJ

sorry, fresh water sturgeon species are not found in NB and there are no muskies down here in SJ, you would have to go up by Bobd's area and further up the sj river. they don't like salt water...!!!
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: JeffGoudreau on July 06, 2011, 07:49:25 pm
You NB'ers are funny.   :o
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: ipop on July 06, 2011, 08:18:26 pm
lol!! ;D 8)
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: phattrick on July 07, 2011, 12:10:09 am
I fish because I like it, not for points or awards or any sort of prize. I travel at least 1.5 hours one way just to wet a line, usually 2 or more hours one way. And I suck at it, I get skunked ALOT. And you know what? I don't care. I just like to fish, although I do like it when someone tells me a good spot to go to. and if I hear of a good one I'll share it. I don't believe in hoarding spots as tho it should be my private fishin hole. If it wasn't for someone giving me exact directions I would have given up long ago, But I meet enough people who tell me to go 2 miles up that road and turn left at the hydro line, follow that 4 miles and  you're there, Use a blah blah and you'll do OK. and you know what they were right and I appreciate it.  If you have knowledge, and don't share it what good is it. It's fishing, not the key to cold fussion.
Cheers
Rick
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: stroover on July 07, 2011, 06:10:33 am
ipop, are you sure you read the whole thread? All those fish you listed in the SJR are in tidal water. That's the whole point, man. Ah, forget about it. I'm going fishing.
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: ipop on July 08, 2011, 05:31:09 pm
stroover, i didn`t list any caught in the sjr. the point was none of those were caught in the sjr, they were caught in or around saint john in lakes and streams from the yak, that`s why i listed where i did catch them.

i<m sorry phatrick, you are right, the point is to go fishing. it`s just some one saying there is no fish or no good fish in my area burns me up. i`m looking over my monitor at a 19" sea run speck i caught from the yak up a stream. it looks like a good fish to me.

i`m going fishing for stripers twice tonight, low tide and high tide, the first from the yak, the second from an inflatable. the yak spot will be in fresh water by these rules. i<ll do my best to get a real trophy - a 45" 38lb was caught last nigt. unfortunately, i slept through the tide last night. i need to set my alarm i guess.
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: stroover on July 08, 2011, 10:55:35 pm
Hey ipop, I'm just sayin', but under the proposed new rules you would only have 2 fish that would count so far on the AOTY: the bass you caught in Weymouth and the fish you caught on Weaton Lake. As for that kind of a goldfish you caught in that brook that dumps into the Kennebecasis, it would likely not count as well as that would likely be tidal too. Just sayin'.
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: ipop on July 09, 2011, 08:24:44 pm
the simplest solution would be a brachish section.  by federal rules, unless there is an exception (and yes, there are lots of them, but almost all are rivers, like the miramichie) tidal/salt ends at the stream mouths. we don`t have a seperate section because it`s not fair to the non coastal parts of Canada. personaly i don`t care which section/contest which fish photos are in, so long as they qualify some where lol!!
since i really only found out about the contest last week or so, unfortuantely most of the pictures i have of fish caught in the yak were taken at home or the camp - no yak in the photos. it`s early in the season yet, so i`ll see what i can do to get pic`s with the yak. i`m probaly to late for some species, but that`s my fault for not coming to the site earlier. a contest is fun, and inspires some fishing trips, but is not the main reason i`m fishing. here is the photo it took to show a days yak fishing for sea run specks, my main point was they made a beautifull plate of fish and it showed the shean of the sea run. i never even noticed the damage to the odd fish untill i took the photo. then i looked more closely and saw he was scared from barely getting away from some toothy critter.


(http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/8273/img0122wk.jpg) (http://img217.imageshack.us/i/img0122wk.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: EagleEyesFlash on July 09, 2011, 10:11:04 pm
Scrumptious Square Tails there ipop.
The bottle 's empty ..sure you have another.
Great job educating us.  ;)
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: stroover on July 09, 2011, 10:19:50 pm
Most of the time those scars are from them getting out of nets. At least that's been the case in my experience with them. That one in the middle is a textbook case.
Title: Re: Tidal water Entries. How do I Decide?
Post by: ipop on July 10, 2011, 12:02:46 pm
it could easily have been scared by a net as stroover said, but it did look like teeth marks, sort of jagged. the other branch of the stream i caught it in leads to the best pickerel fishing on kingstin peninsula. stroover, you were right about that gold shiner too. i had the rule right but had forgoten  one thing - water level. where i was at was above the stream mouth now, but they set the stream mouth at either the median or high level mark (depending on what rule you are looking at), and since it`s in a major flood plain, the spot i was at would be under a couple feet of water, and be considered tidal. talk about a slippery slope!! lol.

the stream i caught those sea trout on is a trickle now.  that side of the stream almost disappears in the summer, but when i caught them it was the height of freshit (spring flood). i was well above the normal stream mouth, by a couple hundred yards but i caught them 30 to 100 yards below the stream mouth at the time, but they were caught in water at the highest level and well above the median, actually in a beaver dam. by the wardens , all this is fresh. i wouldn`t give out the name, but all the locals know about it AND fish it heavily, and in think i`ve already told half the world...lol, all this and it`s my favorite fishing spot, so don`t tell anybody else...lol!. it`s milkish creek. you could run a species tourney there and never go more than 200 yards...and never know what you are going to catch next, from pin fish to sturgeon. once a few years ago it had so many shad and gaspereaux you could have walked across them. i could just reach in and grab one. they were mostly gasperaux but there were a lot of shad mixed in. i have never seen anything like it before and i have been fishing it for 40 years. ps: caution. it is not a safe place to park. finding your tires flattened when you come back is not unheard of. not every time, but often enough. like i said, the locals know allllll about it. i have often put in well away from this spot and then paddle or motor up to it, portaging only across a road, and then only to fiosh one part of it. it`s a 30-60 minute paddle or row from the end of millidge ave beside the roayal kennibicasis yacht club in saint john. i do it every couple years. parking is much safer there!!!